A Meeting of Minds: P. N. Mago in Conversation with B. C. Sanyal

This interview is drawn from a conversation between B. C. Sanyal and P. N. Mago at the India International Centre. The two founding members of the Delhi Silpi Chakra reflect on the formation of the group, its early activities, and the challenging social, political and financial circumstances they had to navigate.

Their warm and lively exchange not only reveals the atmosphere of the city during the group’s inception but also highlights their shared dedication to the cause of art. The discussion highlights the key events and commitments that shaped the Silpi Chakra’s ideology. Following is an edited excerpt from the transcript of the interview that has been published in DAG’s accompanying publication to the exhibition, Drawing a Nation: the Delhi Silpi Chakra.

Pran Nath Mago (P. N. M.): Sanyal sa’ab, after you moved to Delhi, how did you meet the new art environment in Delhi? Did you find it difficult to adjust yourself to it?

Bhabesh Chandra Sanyal (B. C. S.): Well, it can’t be answered in just a few words, because as we moved out to Delhi, rather emigrated here, having [been] completely uprooted all of a sudden, there were other problems which faced me particularly. I’m talking about myself [though this] must have been a common experience with many other refugees like myself—and in so far as I was concerned the only resource from which I could draw for my rehabilitation was the skill I had at my disposal as a painter or as a sculptor. I don’t even want to refer to it as ‘an ‘artist’, but I would say my skill as a painter… That was the only resource from which I could draw and that was the situation perhaps with most of the artists who migrated from erstwhile West Punjab. Then I suddenly felt like ‘out-of-the-frying-pan-into-the-fire’, because the conditions in Delhi itself were more or less identical to what we had experienced in Lahore. Therefore, the time was very disturbing—very, very disturbing. [In] such [a] situation, we hardly had time to settle down to thinking about art and the ‘art situation’ and so on and so forth. It gradually filtered into my mind when I had [a] little time to look around and see the situation, and the situation of course was familiar to me already because I have been visiting Delhi from Lahore every now and then.

B. C. Sanyal, Untitled (Nizamuddin Burial Ground), early 1950s, Oil on canvas, 21.0 x 26.2 in. Collection: DAG

P. N. M.: Of course, yes.

B. C. S.: It had not altered very much, except that towards the end of the Second World War, amongst the British Army, there were quite a few intellectuals who were either painters or took interest in art or people in the field of literature and so on and so forth. That made some kind of impact—in that the few artists I knew who were practising in Delhi, they came in contact with these people. There was a kind of exchange of experiences and ideas, which probably affected the thinking of a few—a few only—who were in Delhi itself. By the time I had begun to settle down, I found that there was a kind of outlook which was quite different, a little different than what I had experienced before…

P. N. M.: That means in Lahore?

B. C. S.: Yes, both in Lahore and Delhi. And now people were looking out for new information, new knowledge, and which was at the root, and the ground was ready to receive the new ideas, and that’s how people were experimenting a little towards what we call today ‘modern art’. Our dear friend Sailoz [Mookherjea] was there in Delhi, and he was quite alert, and he established contacts with most of these British Army people—and was doing fairly good business with them. In the process, his work was also progressing from what I had known him to do earlier.

Sailoz Mookherjea,Untitled (Kneeling Peasant Girl), 1950s, Oil on canvas pasted on Masonite board, 15.7 x 20.0 in. Collection: DAG

P. N. M.: But did this art situation in Delhi affect a change in your outlook and attitude to art in your work, and broadened, in any manner, your outlook to a wider field of art interest and expose you to the art activity as a whole in the country?

B. C. S.: Well, there again I will say that it was nothing novel or strange for me. After all, what we knew sitting in Lahore itself was more or less identical to what I found when I came to Delhi. But that was a thing which didn’t affect me personally very much, because it was not really something about which I had no familiarity before. But, we, at least I can say for myself, that we did not find at that moment either the audience or the organisations of artists. One of the foremost organisations, the All India… what is it called…

P. N. M.: Fine Arts and Crafts Society…

B. C. S.: Yes, Society of Fine Arts and Crafts. In short, A. I. F. A. C. S.

P. N. M.: In fact, it was the only society, limited to one annual exhibition.

B. C. S.: That’s right. That was like other art societies that used to function with only one annual art exhibition.

P. N. M.: Yes…

B. C. S.: And we had the same kind of thing in the Punjab Art Society, with which I was associated in Lahore itself. But A. I. F. A. C. S. being the only organisation in Delhi, which gradually had drawn us towards it, and I myself became a member of their society. You were also probably a member then?

P. N. M.: Yes, yes, I also became a member of the society soon after I came to Delhi.

B. C. S.: That’s right.

P. N. M.: And, in fact, you would recall that soon after, I think in end [19]48 or beginning [19]49, some of us got together because we were not somehow very happy with the general activities of the society and sort of helped to create a group of our own, which I am sure you can talk about in detail.

B. C. S.: Well, that was the basis…I should say, [of] the founding of Delhi Silpi Chakra.

P. N. M.: Yes, that’s what I mean.

B. C. S.: Actually, what happened was that we had expected much out of the society in the sense that the artists themselves would play [a] vital role in the affairs of the society, in conducting its affairs and also take part in such programmes and activities that would really make an impact in the artistic process of development, in art. But in practice, we found that artists by themselves was a small community in the membership of the entire society, and it seemed to us at that moment that there was a sense of hegemony amongst a few founder members… of the society who did not want any interference, but [wanted us] to toe the line… So that’s how the friction started.

P. N. M.: Yes, I remember, because, in fact, the formation of the Delhi Silpi Group was not just…

B. C. S.: Right, not just forming a rival group…

P. N. M.: It was a kind of a movement in its own right, its own manner.

B. C. S.: Yes, we all felt that the artist should run their own show; if they want to run a group or society as such, the artists must themselves be active participants in that kind of thing.

P. N. M.: Would you be able to recall, Sanyal sa’ab, as to what transpired in this movement, creating Delhi Silpi Chakra, about end of ’48 and beginning of ’49? And what was its impact on the art scene in Delhi itself and as a whole in the country? Because I remember it attracted a lot of attention elsewhere besides Delhi.

B. C. S.: Certainly, I believe it did. Well, I think we must remember that, as I said earlier, basically it was this kind of difference of opinion between the society as it was run then, and that was no different from any other existing so-called all-India societies anywhere in India, and more or less it was a kind of a protest that inspired us to form this group, rather than anything else— rather than a particular ideology as such—because we never, at that moment of time, thought in terms of a particular ideology or manifestation of art to which we had subscribed. But the first and foremost thing that we did was that the artists should have some confidence in themselves and not be led by others. That was the primary object. Later on, through the process of our growth, we did formulate a few ideas, and as far as I remember: one was that art and our activities should not be divorced from the society in which we live, and, in other words, it should not be esoteric and divorced from the people as such. We wanted larger participation of the people. And we also realised that that could be possible if there was a really active communication between the artist and its public.

P. N. M.: Right.

B. C. S.: You will remember that that’s why we initiated a kind of demonstration lectures, not in fashionable galleries or halls but we went out in the open— Connaught Place-Connaught Circus parks and gardens, galis and mohallas like Karol Bagh, and other places where they had never seen an art exhibition, and it’s this kind of approach that stimulated a lot of interest amongst the public as to what we were trying to say and what we were trying to do. And I think, as far as I remember, they were accepted very enthusiastically by the people, and it started growing larger and larger. Our meetings were attended by people when we were demonstrating the techniques of watercolour, clay modelling and things like that all over the places. And that brought us into a direct communication with people. Another thing we initiated, as you’ll remember, that we never used to invite any dignitary as such who was not directly related or really interested in art, literature, and we wanted to bring under one and the same platform our fellow artists in other fields, like theatre people, musicians, dancers, writers, and that was a very stimulating factor in the growth and development of the Silpi Chakra’s ideas.

P. N. M.: Yes, I think you are quite right. We had been able to somehow establish a sort of dialogue with the members of other art fields, and we used to meet quite often in the premises which was given to us in Shankar Market at that time, and I am sure you remember that we started even an art training centre.

B. C. S.: Very much so.

P. N. M.: …to announce that we had an exhibition of the group in Mr P.A. Narielwala’s house.

B. C. S.: Haan, yes, yes.

P. N. M.: At 7 Ratendone Road. I think I remember the month, it was July 1949.

B. C. S.: You have a sharp memory, I must say.

P. N. M.: In which, works of—at least as it was mentioned—leading artists of Delhi like Shankar Pillai, yourself, Kanwal Krishna, K. S. Kulkarni and my name was also included, and few other members. We were all exhibited in that exhibition to raise funds for the group and its activities, including this art training centre. Would you be able to recall some other interesting events for which Delhi Silpi Chakra was responsible in the city of Delhi during that time?

B. C. S.: Well, first, I must take this opportunity to mention one thing which, for me, it was…I felt it was important, and that was, I remember I had some reservations about taking the exhibition facilities offered by Mr Narielwala. You know, some people can be near us in this process, and Mr Narielwala was certainly one of them, who took good deal of interest in what we were doing. But my reservation…and I think I had also, in our group meeting, expressed this idea, that what we were…how we had begun, [our intention] was to get away from this kind of patronage of individuals or groups who usually make use of us artists, but in the affairs, when it comes to business in the societies and so on, we have hardly any place. And [though] with all good intentions of Mr Narielwala, [I felt] perhaps we are again going back to the same kind of patronage extended by an individual… [and] whether we should not think twice before we get involved in this, [but] there was difference of opinion. We were all in great hardships… Most of them [we]re refugees and so on, and they thought otherwise—that we should rather take advantage of this [opportunity], which will give us a platform, and probably, as Mr Narielwala had said, he would invite the prime minister to this particular exhibition. But again, I still remember that [the] prime minister certainly came, but none of our artists were present—because we were not told… [laughter]

P. N. M.: He did have some sincere sympathy with the group consisting of these artists, but as you said—you are right—that we had actually not wished to associate such dignitaries with the intimate group’s activities and [wanted] to stand on our own feet, but probably in the beginning, it was necessary to start to take advantage of the premises for display. At that time, I don’t think…

B. C. S.: We had hardly any place!

P. N. M.: So, in those circumstances, we probably had to accept that situation.

Kanwal Krishna, Shivering Sun, Aquatint on paper, 12.7 x 14.7 in. Collection: DAG

B. C. S.: Well, but that was a kind of a basic principle that we had adopted, and I thought even these little deviations will ultimately again go back to the same kind of ideas. So we had to fight and stand on our own legs, whatever were the difficulties. And that is the reason why in the beginning of our first exhibition, I remember, at Freemasons Hall, we had not invited any dignitary—either a minister or someone so on and so forth. And we said our exhibition will be just declared open, by ourselves.

P. N. M.: In fact, Sanyal s’aab, I remember, the Freemasons’ exhibition was really not the first one—that probably was the second one. The first one we had at the Y. M. C. A. hall. In fact, I remember because I used to stay in Y. M. C. A., and we had been able to acquire that hall in their old building that time. And I, along with another group member, we spent the whole night hanging the pictures. That was the first exhibition [perhaps one of the earlier private openings]. It was in Y. M. C. A. on Jaisingh Road.

B. C. S.: Jai Singh Road, that’s right.

P. N. M.: That time we didn’t have any space, for the office or any other thing. We used to meet at 7, Jantar Mantar Road—on the lawns.

B. C. S.: That was one funny thing, when we didn’t invite any dignitaries, the press or the press photographers, nobody turned up. They said, ‘Why should we go? There is no one we can photograph.’ They didn’t think of us as important, but [considered] the person who came to inaugurate more important. But what is interesting is that we persisted on this line, and began to invite either a literary person, and so [on] and so forth, to be present with us at the inauguration. And gradually, these press people who used to cover these exhibitions with photographs and so on, they realised that it was a mistake—because our exhibition was really getting popular. And what is far more interesting is that these few dignitaries, for instance, the minister of education, I think, was Professor Humayun Kabir for some time—they started on their own to come and see what we were up to, instead of being invited as an important person, but as a person himself, out of his own interest… they started filtering in, which made us very happy.

P. N. Mago, The Three Sisters, 1948, Oil on canvas 30.2 x 35.0 in. Collection: DAG